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?Read along while listening to Episode 02 – Anointed Worship?

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youtu.be/xdtARQVzXYA

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Kim
Hello and welcome to Episode 02 of 3 Talk Truth. I’m  Kim and our topic today is Anointed Worship? And what we are wondering, and what we’d like to explore today is: Are worship leaders anointed or do they have a special anointing? And that’s what we’d like to talk about today. I have with me my daughter and my son-in-law Thilo.

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Thilo
I’m not your daughter and son-in-law. Just do your daughter … maybe … do what it says. My daughter and son-in-law and we’re not talking about transgenderism right now. He did not have surgery.

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Kim
As usual I have with me my daughter Bre and my son-in-law Thilo. So, I’m not sure if you remember this but Thilo has been a worship leader for almost 15 years. And we’re really excited that Thilo will share some of his personal experiences in being a worship leader. We’d like to look into the biblical meaning of Anointing especially how it relates to worship but also just in general. So, to get the ball rolling, I’d love it if you Thilo will tell briefly how you became a worship leader.

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Thilo
Well, there’s not that much to tell, but I’m going to try my best anyway. So, in 2002 I became a Christian through the work of some American Missionaries that moved into our neighborhood in the eastern side of Berlin, and I was just 17 years old. So right from the beginning I kind of started helping out in the small groups and helping out worshipping with the guitar or just singing vocals or helping to prep the songs, which songs were going to do, mostly topical.

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Bre
Did you already play the guitar at that point?

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Thilo
I started playing the guitar and at that time I was already asked to help out with the guitar to help out, so I advanced pretty quickly, I guess. Then, at some point,  the American Missionaries, after their work, so to say, was done, in the east of Berlin, they left and went back to the States most of them. And kind of handed over the Church to some German leaders that came in. And then I was basically asked to then step up to have or lead a worship team in the church services. So, then, yeah, every second Sunday I would then lead worship with people besides me helping out with instruments and vocals but I basically had the hat, that’s what we say in German, you know I had the hat on my head, I don’t know if I can say that or maybe I should say something different.

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Bre
You wore the hat.

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Kim
I thought that was good.

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Thilo
Okay cool, however, yeah, so.

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Kim
I think it’s great Thilo, that they allowed you to do that at such a young age. And I know just from knowing you that the Lord used that time to grow you as a worship leader. So it’s pretty exciting.

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Bre
It is pretty cool. So, I’ve been in several different churches in my life and oftentimes, you know, the people who are on front, on stage, or seen as someone quite special. Where you seen as special or elevated because you were picked out and to lead worship for small groups and ultimately in the main church.

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Thilo
As far as I can remember, from the very get-go of my Christian life, basically, when I came to Christ for the first time, when I was 17. I was basically one of the first ones who came to Christ and then because of that I had already a special place in the church and of course was seen as someone of a Prodigy to lead, maybe further on the church and grow the church. And help with not only worship but maybe even part-time, full-time minister in the future, when I would grow older, let’s say into my tweens. And that never happened, to that extent, but until then, until I left that church, at some point, I was basically handed somewhat of authority, to lead that worship team and somewhat of just trust, right. People trusted me with these people and leading them to let’s say the presence of God and just in worship in general in the service. And that automatically, like, being in front of people, makes you somewhat special, but you know our church wasn’t that big. So, twenty to thirty people. Everyone there knows everyone and everyone’s suddenly special. You know everyone is important, ‘cause we’re all steering the ship together. That’s how it felt at least. And, I guess, that made me feel special, in a sense. But not the only one. Right, that was like: “You are amazing” even though, people would say that and I would say that about others, too. However, yeah.

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Kim
It sounds to me like it was pretty healthy then.

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Bre
I was going to say.

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Thilo
Yeah, it was pretty balanced.

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Kim
Good.

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Thilo
It felt pretty balanced.

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Kim
That’s good.

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Thilo
Now looking back, yeah.

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Bre
So shortly after we met you, you began leading worship for Burn 24-7. And I remember almost right from the start, your slots were pretty popular. Do you remember when in your life when you, maybe, first started hearing that your worship leading or your worship time was anointed?

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Thilo
Right, so, maybe for you who’s listening and you don’t know what the Burn 24-7 is. Really briefly it is like basically a time once a month in a certain city in the world wherever that would be. Anywhere in the world right now you have those Burn 24-7 prayer and worship times. Basically focusing on worship only and it would go from 6 to 24 to 100 hours consecutive worship. So, every 2 hours there would be another worship leader. And I would take part in that, like from the very get-go in Berlin, as Bre just said. So, yeah I felt like there was something about, let’s say, my sets, that’s what we would call them, those 2 hours. Because the room would fill up really quickly when I was starting to lead worship. And people came up to me afterward and said: “Wow, that was amazing”, you know, “I really liked what you did”, “You’re really anointed”, “You’re special”, “You’re on the next level of worship”. And all that stuff. So yes in a way, I do remember hearing that, and I do remember feeling pretty good about it like I had anything to do with that. If God would give me somewhat of an anointing.

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Bre
Was that your first time to hear that?

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Thilo
„Yes, of course, ’cause I’ve never been in, these, let’s say this circle of worshipers, that came in from all over Berlin or even from Germany, that would say these things, right? Like, I’ve never been involved with this kind of language before.“

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Bre
Okay.

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Thilo
„Or immersed in this kind of language as in being anointed. Usually, it would be like, “Wow you have a great voice”, you know, “It really touched my heart”, that kind of thing more. Yeah.”

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Bre
But that kind of that expression, anointed, came kind of with a different crowd.

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Thilo
„It came with a different crowd, with these worshipers and in this cirlce of the Burn 24-7, yeah.”

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Bre
So, but I’ve heard that expression for years, especially from my mom, Kim. So, when you have been saying it Kim, what did you mean, if you talked about someone being anointed?

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Kim
„Yeah, I had to think about that while Thilo was talking. I realized I don’t think I started using that word until I started attending a very charismatic megachurch in the United States. And, I just remember, thinking, if somebody led worship or spoke and if I felt the Holy Spirit when they were leading I just had an assumption, they were anointed. And I used that to mean that, I thought they were really in touch with God, maybe having a good prayer life. Not trying to perform, but trying to please the Lord. And I would say “Wow, that speaker…” or “… that worship leader is really anointed”. And again I don’t know if that was because I heard that in the church setting I was in or if I just started saying that on my own. I’m not really sure, but, that’s what I meant by it.“

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Bre
Yeah, that makes sense. If you felt like the Holy Spirit was impacting the room, that you would equate that with anointing.

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Kim
„Right, right.“

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Bre
So, Thilo. Did you think that you had a special anointing, you’d been touched by God in a way that other people weren’t? And if so, what did that mean to you?

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Thilo
„So yeah, of course, I felt good about it, because, if people come up to you after two hours of let’s say musical worship, and you pour your heart out, and that’s what I did. And maybe that’s the key, what attracted people to my worship more than anything. That I would just be so real and pouring out my heart and being myself, not worrying about what other people would think. That means sometimes I would sing spontaneous songs, that came into my mind or from my heart, as the Bible asks to sing a new song unto the Lord. So, I did that quite often in my sets, in English and in German. And people would come up to me and say specifically about these things that they really liked, what I was singing and they could see an anointing on me. And what it meant to me basically, it confirmed me in what I was doing. That was my call, to be this specific worship leader, who is able to hear the Holy Spirit so clearly and the speaking of the Lord so clearly, that I could just sing those words out like some of the prophets from the Bible. And I would actually compare myself to those musical prophets in the Old Testament, that were in the Prophets School or University there, that were trained on the mountain, and they all had instruments. So I would basically be the same, I felt like I was one of them, right? So, putting myself on the same level, maybe not, let’s say status, on the same level, in the same heart posture as these men, that would just worship God. In that worship, God would speak through them and they would go and have those prophetic utterances, or whatever happened. You know, where King Saul, the first King of Israel, had his prophetic encounter. Where he was prophecying, like these prophets and then they asked him, right? “Is Saul among the prophets, now?” and he wasn’t, but he fell under the prophetic anointing, so to say, right? So, yes for me I felt very special about it like I did something for that. It’s really funny again, just hearing the word anointing it’s something if anything it’s given to you, done to you and you have nothing to do with that, in that sense. Looking back on my, I guess my heart, and how I felt about it. I was very proud and you can imagine, if I would sing a song that came to my mind at the end of one song, I would think “Oh, maybe I should sing this known worship song next”. And then I did that song and then my set ended, and someone would come up to me and say … That happened so many times, seriously. “I was thinking of that same song, just before you started singing it and then you started singing it“. And for me, that gave me the impression, that I was able to hear the Holy Spirit so clearly and I was so anointed and I was special. And basically have a different status, because these people, would tell me I’m this different special status person, right? So whatever people told me, I started becoming and believing.”

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Kim
„And I would just like to add, I was one of those people, that came up to you. That happened a lot. I just remember. I don’t know that I thought you were so special, I was thinking “Wow Lord, that’s amazing. How you work, how the Holy Spirit works. I wanted to sing a song and then He sang it”. So, just a bit different perspective.“

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Thilo
„Right, right. Of course the people, I know the people don’t have any intentions to actually lift me higher that God and I know most of those people have probably very pure intentions and were just complementing and encouraging. Just loving on me, too, right? Showing me that, “Oh, wow this was great, wasn’t it?” Like, “That was great, wasn’t it?” so that kind of feeling, like saying “Thank you” and shaking hands, and having the connection with the person that just did this, you know? Like with a famous musician, or whatever. You want to see them, touch them and then .. I guess in a similar way but what it does to me, and what it did to me was, it lead me away from just pure intentions of “I just want to praise God”. But no, I want to satisfy people’s expectations, next to worshiping God. I want to be an impressive worshiper, you know that’s what it did to my heart. Over the years, throughout the years. Not right away but of course it gives you something as a musician, worshiper. Anything that you do on stage or in front of people and people encourage you and recognize what you’re doing is meaningful to them, it does something to you.“

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Bre
„But that could be the case if somebody used the word anointing or somebody used the word talented.“

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Thilo
„Right.“

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Bre
„Or somebody said “I like that” and then another time they said “I didn’t like that”, I mean, it’s kind of human nature, right? The struggle within all of us that we have to overcome, I think.“

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Kim
„So, BreAnna I was wondering if you could talk about what you see as the difference between anointing and being led by the Holy Spirit, as you lead worship.“

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Bre
„Ooh, that’s a tuff question. Okay, but I think I would put it like this. I feel like the modern, let’s say, charismatic Christian equates anointing with power. And, I think there is an expression that’s kind of been bounced around, maybe for about 20 years, or so. That you have to pay the price, to become anointed. I believe it was Benny Hinn who said it. I am not 100 percent sure.”

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Thilo
„He’s probably not the only one who said it, but yeah, one of the more famous ones.“

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Bre
„But maybe several people have said it, you know. “If you want the anointing you have to pay the price!”.“

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Thilo
„Oh, yeah.“

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Bre
„So, the implication is, if you want a special status you have to do something in order to receive it.“

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Thilo
„So weird.“

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Bre
„Whereas being led by the Holy Spirit, and we’re talking specifically about worship, so I’ll just stick with that, is kind of about putting performance aside. And being willing to listen to still small voice and I mean that is kind of a special experience of Burn 24-7. When you have that long 2-hour slot that you’re leading. It’s really difficult to schedule 2 hours of music. So, at some point you have to, correct me if I’m wrong, throw out the playbook essentially. And rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you. And to sing the songs He’s longing to hear, you know, to himself, unto his glory, unto their glory.“

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Kim
„Right.“

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Bre
„So, I would say that’s how I would see the difference between anointing …“

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Kim
„That’s excellent, I like what you said. I hope this isn’t off-topic but, that brought to mind, that Spurgeon was saved by a preacher. He wasn’t the main preacher, he just walked in and a little old man was up there and couldn’t talk very well and didn’t have a loud voice, didn’t have the power, so to speak. And, that’s how Spurgeon got saved. It doesn’t look a certain way, that the person is powerful. But, the person is obviously surrendered.“

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Bre
„Has laid something down.“

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Kim
„Yes.“

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Bre
„Maybe their performance or just their schedule, but also, I mean, I think maybe we confuse talent and anointing. Or we use those words interchangeably.“

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Thilo
„Of course, yeah.“

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Bre
„You know, somebody who is a wonderfully talented speaker obviously has the power to move us in a way. Just through their talent, that a non-talented speaker, like the non-talented pastor who converted Spurgeon.“

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Kim
„Yes.“

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Bre
„Couldn’t move a room, and we might point our finger to the talented one and say, “That’s anointing.”. And it’s talent. It’s still God-given, but it doesn’t have quite the spiritual status and power that the idea of anointing, sort of, carries with it.“

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Thilo
„Right, so power is kind of a word for me, that I find interesting especially in the whole prosperity Gospel movement that you see on TV in the States, which is very prominent, of course. We talked about Benny Hinn a little bit. But, I think it is interesting, that they claim that word for themselves, that they are the anointed. And do not touch, that’s kind of the phrase, do not touch the Lords anointed. And that’s basically, was it the king back then that was that being said about in the Bible or was it a prophet?“

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Kim
„Yes.“

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Thilo
„So, it’s a king.“

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Kim
„King Saul.“

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Thilo
„Right, King Saul. But, I think it’s so interesting, that they claim that word for themselves and they are special and they are making themselves a certain status and that you are lower than them. And that is so Un-Christ like in my mind. If I just think about it, what Christ lived on earth, what an example He gave and how he said, “Who wants to be high in the kingdom of God …“, or, “great.” You should serve, you should be lower than everyone else and do what I did. Die, take up your cross, you know and all these things from the New Testament, it’s just amazing what Christ lived. And what we see, the perverted, opposite side of that, now being promoted and it’s so popular, people love that and they believe it and they fall for it because they do not know the Word of God. So it’s sad, it’s just sad.”

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Bre
„So let me read to you, I really think this is. The word anointing actually doesn’t appear very often in the New Testament. It appears a lot in the Old Testament. But here is, I think, this is really good. It’s from 1. John 2:19-28 (ESV). And it starts a little bit, I’m pulling it a little out of context, but you’ll see where it’s going.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us eternal life. 26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.” And I love, I think that the word anointing only appears, aside from in the Gospels when it’s specifically talking about Jesus being anointed. Here’s two or three times in the New Testament. And every time, all those times aside from Jesus himself it’s talking about the whole body being anointed. You’re in Christ therefor you are anointed. It isnt, something special that you have to pay the price for, that makes you more powerful or elevated above other people.“

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Thilo
„Like you have a special gift or something that others don’t have and that’s what the anointing means. You’re anointed because of this gift. No, you’re anointed period, because you’re in Christ.”

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Bre
„Amen. So, obviously you don’t feel anymore that you’re anointed, Thilo.“

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Thilo
„Mhhmmmm.”

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Bre
„So, but what brought you to that conclusion. How did you change your way of thinking and start see yourself as puffed up.“

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Thilo
„Well, there is a couple things that happened in this last year. Just in this year, in the beginning of the year we watched this documentary “The American Gospel“. And, that wasn’t the beginning but that was one of the main factors that brought me to look more into the word and find out, right, about the word anointing, if I’m anointed at all. I kind of questioned, I started questioning a lot of things. And I’m still in the process of kind of recuperating from that, finding myself in who I am in Christ, and not just identity but just what I believe and why I believe it. And do I just take things for granted. So, “The American Gospel” helped in that way, that exactly what we talked about, with Benny Hinn. It showed very clearly, that that’s so wrong, to me. And I’ve never seen it. And just them using the word “Do not touch the Lord’s anointed.” 1. Chronicles 16:22 (Benny Hinn with his own words on YouTube), as a threat to others, it’s such an abuse and misuse. And, so, it just got the ball rolling and I was talking to you Bre about it as well. I think I don’t believe in special anointing anymore. And I was kind of devastated, myself because I thought I had something special and suddenly I didn’t anymore.“

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Bre
„And I was shocked.“

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Thilo
„Yeah, of course you are.“

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Bre
„And you are, Thilo is a very talented worship leader, and I had to really chew on it for a couple of weeks. Whether I agreed with him, that anointing was misused or not. And ultimately reading the Bible was what changed my mind, so.“

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Thilo
„And it’s so nice, because it’s so clear in the New Testament, and so clear what it’s being used for in the Old Testament. So it was beautiful just to see the simplicity of the New Testaments statements about anointing. And then just finding, there was a corporate setting, it was for the corporate body of Christ, who is immersed in Him. That we are all anointed, not one has, more or less, gifts, or is better, or lower. We’re all the same basically in Christ’s eyes. And that was just refreshing, but devastating, because it was something, that I was identifying myself with. I am this special, anointed, talented …“

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Bre
„Powerful.“

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Thilo
„… powerful, in God’s Holy Spirit able to listen to the Holy Spirit, worshiper who’s able to fill up a room in a second. That kind of thinking was in my heart and in my mind. And when that falls off of you and I actually did not just think that and said, “Bre, I think there is no more anointing.”, or, “I’m not anointed”, but I actually repented actively in front of our Home Church, in front of Bre as well, and said, “This is … that was so wrong, what I was thinking, what I was doing, I know my heart very well, that I was deceiving myself, I was lying to myself, I was thriving in it, but for the wrong reasons.“. Right, like, I wasn’t looking for God I was looking for …”

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Bre
„A special status.“

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Thilo
„… a special status maybe. I was, yeah, I was looking for …”

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Kim
„Self approval.“

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Thilo
„… approval from people. More than anything. And, of course, if I get the approval from people, for me that meant I got approval from God through people. Of course, that’s how we’re supposed to live, right? That’s the Christian life, we’re supposed to encourage each other. So, …”

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Bre
„That’s right.“

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Thilo
„… but there is a twist in it if you start becoming prideful. And I started becoming prideful, through it, and I’m still dealing with that, but at least I’m aware of it now. And I think, once I was aware of it, things started crumbling off of me. And again, it’s very emotional ’cause it’s like a lifestyle that I’ve lived since 2002. If you can think about it, right, if you look back that’s 17 years of hearing, “You’re amazing, you’re awesome, you’re anointed, you’re talented”. Yeah, of course, but especially the anointing thing, that is not easy to then see the Biblical reality. It’s like coming out of a cult, right. That emotional, leaving things behind, that, and you believed the wrong things, for the wrong reasons. And that is hard. So, here we go, I’m in the middle of it, but it’s beautiful to live truthfully, and Biblically unto God.“

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Kim
„That’s good, thank you Thilo. You know, it seems to me that people are as much to blame by looking to the pastors and worship leaders as if they’re something, rather than keeping the focus on Jesus.“

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Bre
„I agree with that. I think that’s the other twist that’s in it when they think this person has a special power, and maybe because they paid the price, or they read the Bible more than me, or because they are just special. Then where they’re trying to abide in their pastors teaching or in their worship leaders worship, rather than abiding in Christ and the word, right?“

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Kim
„Right, right. And it’s sad, as Thilo said earlier.“

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Thilo
„It’s sad that we’re not reading our Bibles. That’s the problem! Read the Bible you can see it, there is no precedent and whatsoever of being anointed in a sense that we’re using or have been using in the Charismatic circles. There is no such thing in the New Testament or in the Old Testament.“

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Bre
„Well, there is the precedent of the prophets in the Old Testament.“

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Thilo
„Well, talk about it a little bit.“

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Bre
„Interestingly, they were not anointed.“

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Thilo
„They were not called “The anointed prophets”, right.“

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Bre
„The priests were anointed and the kings were anointed.“

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Thilo
„Right.“

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Bre
„The prophets weren’t anointed …“

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Thilo
„They were doing the anointing, they are the ones who got them and said, “You’re the King so I anoint you with this oil, here, give me the flask of oil”, he put it over the persons head and that was anointing physical oil.“

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Bre
„They are the ones who did it, yeah.“

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Kim
„And what is the definition of the anointing for a King or a priest?“

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Bre
„Or a holy object, or a place. That it was consecrated, holy before the Lord. Which explains what anointing means, why the whole body of Christ is anointed. Through the blood of Christ, we are consecrated, set aside, made holy for God. And that’s why they anointed priests and kings and objects, bodies for burial and special places of worship.“

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Kim
„It strikes me that, is it possible that some people are just lazy. Maybe they’d rather have an anointed pastor, who does all the work, so to say, does it all. And they can just follow along.“

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Bre
„Yeah, I mean people brag about their pastors. You know,  “Oh you should hear my amazing, anointed pastor teach!”. And they wear their church on their lapel, almost like that gives them a special status.“

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Kim
„Yes, rather than plugging in themselves, as Thilo said, to the word of God, to prayer, to a 1-on-1 relationship with the Lord, themselves, which is what God wants for all of us.“

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Bre
„For all of us.“

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Thilo
„Right. I mean, another crazy thing, that we’ve talked about earlier, a little bit about the worship leader and about anointing was really…. Just the thought of it, maybe let me just give you the premice of it, we can talk about it a little bit. About the worship leader, that he’s literally seen in the Charismatic, seen and more or less Holy Spirit influenced, who cares. The worship leader is literally seen as the one who ushers in the presence of God, in this place where they are worshiping and then leads the worshipers into the presence he just ushered in. So, the whole congregation basically follows the worship leader into the presence of God. He is basically the middleman and that thought is a true thought in the Charismatic circle, it’s very real. I experienced it so many times, that, let’s say, the pressure and the expectation that was put on me during those worship times when I was asked, let’s say at a worship conference or just a like a conference or a service or a prayer, and worship time. I was specifically asked to come because they knew, through me the presence of Lord, would be ushered in, through my worship. Just, and that thought is so rediculous, if you think about it in Biblical terms, right. That the worship leader nowadays is kind of like a mediator, a middleman between God using the Holy Spirit and men. So, you become like a Messiah figure, like a high priest, so to say, even though there is now only one high priest left, who is Christ himself, right?! The last and perfect high priest and we don’t need any other. That is one of the thoughts, that we had, or I had and let’s talk about this.“

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Kim
„On, to be devil’s advocate, it popped into my mind, in Psalms it says, “Enter His gates with thanksgiving and His courts with praise.” (Psalm 100:4). So, there is a part of coming before Him, we do want to do it with praise. We do want to do it with worship. Everybody should have a posture of worshiping and praising, whether there’s a worship leader up there or not. And not depending on somebody to do it. But it’s important that we do have it in our minds, when we come before Him it is with worship and thanksgiving.“

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Bre
„I think the misconception is not the value of the worship. The misconception is that the presence of God ever leaves us. Or needs to be ushered in. Or that we need someone to help us to go to God. That’s the problem with it, right?!“

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Kim
„Right, right.“

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Bre
„Because Jesus, like he said, we only need the high priest. That’s the whole purpose of the high priest, to bring you into the presence, or you can’t go, so he goes for you. But, like Thilo said, once we all have Jesus and He is that mediator, we are in Him, so we are, in the presence of God all the time. And so the idea that we can come out of it, or go into it, or someone can bring it to us is really what the problem is, I would say, more than the idea that worship is important. ‘Cause it is important, for sure.“

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Thilo
„And you remember, girls, right, that we had so many songs that we sang here we say, “Holy Spirit come, Holy Spirit dwell”, and there is a point to it, too, right. Where people ask for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then you could say, “Yes, Holy Spirit come, ’cause I don’t have you yet.”, or “We need you”, in that sense, but, if you already have been, if you’re Born-Again and say yad the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you’re in this place of worship after 20 years of being a Christian, and you still sing “Holy Spirit come”, then something, in my mind, now even more so, rather than back then. Something is wrong. Something is truly wrong, ’cause you don’t understand, that you’re in the Holy Spirit, He is inside of you, that’s just a scriptural reality, that we can hold on to and just know. It’s like, that’s the encouraging thing, like, “I moved in, so I’m here”, you don’t have to ask me to come. So, what are they actually asking for? “

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Bre
„Well they are asking for a manifestation.“

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Thilo
„So what is that manifestation then, what does it look like? Does it feel like something, does it sound like something, does it smell like something, does it taste like something. You know, that’s the thing, we’re looking for an experience. So, when we say, or we said, “We want to enter in the presence of God.”, it’s basically a feeling of something, that we corporately experience, like, I don’t know, like, wind rushing through the audience, or like everyone has goosebumps or some people are falling down, or some people, everyone starts crying. So, that’s we think, that the Holy Spirit is exclusively, or the presence of God. And that’s what we’re looking for the whole time, especially when worship leaders, as I said, are ushering in the presence of God. If this feeling, comes then, into the crowd, through the songs, through the singing, let’s say, three, four songs in suddenly we all feel this thing, whatever it is, and that’s what we call the presence of God. So, maybe it’s a peace, and we can say yes, God is peace, and maybe that’s what we’re feeling, but is that what we’re then calling the exclusive presence of God.“

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Bre
„I mean, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with most of that, from my perspective. I guess that it’s wrong when we think, we need another human being to administer it to us. And I think it’s wrong if that’s all we want and we just go from that, to that, to that and, yeah, and we’re not reading the Bible or if those experiences, teach us something, that isn’t Biblical, then it’s wrong. But I wouldn’t just broad stroke say, all those experiences are not good, and they’re not from the Lord, myself.“

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Kim
„I agree, I do believe that … it says “The Lord delights to hear the praises of His children” and there is a beautiful one in the Psalms, where it says, “He’s dancing in the midst of our praise”. So, I do think there are many times when we do feel His peace, we feel His joy, we feel His presence, we feel His glory.”. But I believe that’s when we’re truly praising Him from our heart, that that happens.“

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Thilo
„And that’s an interesting topic to me as a worshiper now, especially with the newfound perspectives and theological findings of our last months, and conversations we had. Especially about the experiencing joy, yes. Peace, yes. But when I hear experiencing the glory of God, I can only think of the Biblical version, what glory actually means, and it was never, never just a nice feeling, that people had. I mean, there where …“

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Kim
„Moses got to eat a meal with God  on a mountain (Exodus 24:9-11). They fellowshiped with a meal and God’s glory came. There’s different … it wasn’t just where He slayed them with fire, there was fellowship, that’s His glory. And he said, “Show me your glory” (Exodus 33:17-23)“

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Thilo
„He did show him His behind, so to say.“

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Kim
„That’s ’cause He’s … we can’t take it all.“

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Thilo
„We can’t contain it, so, yeah.“

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Bre
„But, I mean, to imply, that peoples experiences in corporate worship with the Holy Spirit are only positive is also wrong. I mean, I know myself, that I’ve been in times of worship where I know the Holy Spirit is manifesting, is moving and, you know, it can be painful. ‘Cause sometimes you see something about yourself or you need to come to repentance, or like the word says “You might realize that you have something a Christian brother and you need to apologize, or you need to forgive.” (Matthew 5:23-24) So, I don’t think anyone thinks that it’s just positive, I mean, ultimately that is a positive experience, repentance. But, yeah.“

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Thilo
„Right, generally it’s understood, that that’s the main factor, and where you said, “That’s wrong”, if that’s the only thing, that we’re looking for is the experience and not the holistic view of … we want to hear the preaching of the word, we want to pray together, we are breaking bread together, we’re having fellowship, community. But we’re literally coming here, just to experience the presence of God, the joy, the peace and whatever, and see the manifestations happen, that’s when a successful service and a wonderful service happened. And if it’s less, we’re not even looking for less. That’s kind of the expectation of the Charismatic church. Especially about the experiencing God, rather than knowing God through the word, knowing God through the fellowship. It’s kind of a limited version of it, and becomes then obviously deprived of all these other wonderful things as well.“

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Bre
„I mean, I guess the question mark for me would be, you know, say you have somebody in this wonderful lively vibrant church and they’re going from Sunday to Super-Sunday. If you plugged that person out and put them down on, you know, the mission field and, let’s just say, Africa. And they don’t have a body anymore, they have two or three believers that they meet with and, does their faith survive? If yes then I would say, there wasn’t anything wrong, but if not then something was wrong either in their motivation or in, yeah, they’re not in the knowledge of God or, you know what I mean? I don’t want to vilify all Charismatic churches, with the Hoy Spirit moving, you know what I mean? I wouldn’t want to put that on a body, I guess it’s each individual person and their response. And as well the leadership, and is the leadership saying, you can only have this experience because of us, or is the leadership saying, you know, you have this experience because of Christ.  And you can have it yourself at home in your living room.“

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Kim
„I do remember, and I believe it was good. You go through a workweek, you’ve been battered by the world, you are working don’t know God, you go to church on Sunday, you go into praise and worship, and you get your cup filled back up. You get refreshed. I don’t think I was seeking a feeling, I was just thanking God for His presence, for who He is, that He’s in my life, that I have Him. And ready to go back out and face the world, so to speak. So, yes, I agree.“

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Thilo
„So during the week, there was no, not one those moments, that you had on Sunday, as well? “

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Kim
„Well, when you are corporate, I believe it says in the Bible, “Forsake not the gathering of yourself together” (Hebrews 10:24-25). And I believe there is a special blessing, when we come together with our brothers and sisters. But of course, that doesn’t have to be as Bre said, you can be on a mission field and God has been strongest to me in the darkness. In the dark days of Berlin, with nobody, He’s been so strong and my life, but that’s not to say, coporate worship is wrong, or can’t be a blessing to people.“

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Thilo
„Right. And there is so much about it, I believe as well, that it’s a heavenly thing, that’s happening on earth. We know from Revelations (Revelations 5) that worship is not just a thing that we do on earth, but is constantly going on in heaven, which is beautiful. So, that’s what we’re doing, not copying but doing here. And there is something about it, that the Lord enjoys us worshiping Him praising Him and I still believe that. And that He, as well, gives back in return and shows us that He delights in us.“

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Bre
„So, we each shared some of our experiences. This was kind of a hard topic for us because even coming into this, we each had a different perspective and we found that we still didn’t really know what we thought about the topic anointing. And we had to chew on it and debate about it a lot. Yeah, but I fell like we have come to a place where we understand each other and we’re excited that we are all anointed. And in fact, we’re encouraged to go on knowing that we do equally have the power of God and that God will use us and that He is using us. And we don’t need that status or people to tell us, right Thilo. And as Kim testified being in the word, knowing Him, hearing His voice, it trumps the flesh. And it gives you the strength to be steadfast and to go on with a pure heart.“

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Kim
„That’s right. It’s all about having a relationship with Jesus. That’s the most important thing. And that’s what He wants, He wants us. Going back to talking about pray without seizing, it’s not a formula from God it’s Him crying out “I want a relationship with you. Talk to me about everything. Stay in communication with me.”. So, I think if we’re trying to move away from formulas and keep bringing that word relationship, that will help give us a right perspective, with these issues.“

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Bre
„And keep us from the thinking, that we need an elevated man or woman to usher us into greater places, which is just a lie.“

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Kim
„That’s right.“

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Bre
„It’s just a trap.“

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Kim
„That’s right.“

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Thilo
„The cool thing is, it already happened through Christ. He already did it. He’s the one who ushered us in and is our middleman, our high priest, and savior. It’s beautiful.“

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Bre
„Abide in Christ.“

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Kim
„Thank you for joining us today and we hope to see you next time at 3 Talk Truth.“

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Bre
„Hope you hear us next time?!“

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Thilo
„Hear us, see us. Anyways.“

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